.
I initially set up this blog as an ad hoc means of dealing with some nuisance posts by a single British detectorist in order not to clog up my main blog answering his nonsense. As my main blog attracted more and more attention from spiteful snipers, I found the need to use it for the same purpose increasingly often.
To be honest though I just saw it as a less public place to get off my chest what I thought about certain people's style of dealing with the fact that somebody was trying to discuss some uncomfortable issues, rather than anything else. There are now 112 posts on it, mostly of little worth as elements in the discussion, but oddly enough they are being visited from time to time.
When I started the main blog, it was a bit of self-indulgence (as most blogs in general are). Over the past year it has become clearer that it is actually being read by a lot of people and there are indications that it is now being treated as an unofficial resource of sorts. It is also clear that the presence of posts there discussing the minutiae of some arguments obscure the wider picture. I am going to try to use the Portable Antiquities and Heritage Issues blog in 2011 to present the broader picture to a wider audience and I have decided therefore to (try to) adopt a stricter policy on what I put on it.
I will therefore now be using this blog in a more systematic way not so much as before as a sort of "ghetto blog" for dealing with nonsense and nuisance posts, but also to argue points that may clog up the main blog, though I plan to cross link between them more. Nevertheless this blog will still have material only of appeal (if at all) to those with rather specific reading interests...
Saturday, January 1, 2011
US Coiney Arguing like a UK Metal Detectorist
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[category: antiquity dealer lobby nonsense]
It looks awfully like somebody got invited to the Washington employment law lawyers' end-of-year party and had a little too much shandy and when they got back into the office added something to their blog:
1) They make some ludicrous claim,
2) Somebody engages them in discussion and points out in a reasonable manner that what they've said is ludicrous and why,
3) An independent witness corroborates that the initial claim is without foundation,
4) The person implicated points out there has been a misunderstanding,
5) the coiney persists in his error ,
6) Again the allegation is checked against the facts known to a witness,
7) The Coiney adds an addendum "In some end of the year foolishness, Prof. Gill has suggested he had nothing at all to do with organizing the above submissions of academic papers". In other words repeating the initial allegation.
One might think from the persistence that he pursues this case that Peter Tompa was the editor's secretary and saw the correspondence between David Gill and PIA's editor Brian Hole. But he is not, and since both David Gill, myself, so two people actually involved who should know what was going on as well as Brian Hole the editor who allegedly submitted to David Gill's persuasion are trying perfectly reasonably to explain to Tompa that this is not the way PIA works there must be some other reason for his utter refusal to admit that he was WRONG. Wrong in his assumption, wrong to make it, and wrong to maintain it in the face of all the evidence.
This situation is repeated time and time again with these folk, they get some idea in their head (about "where ancient coins come from, not-ancient-sites, soldiers on the eve of battle, bury -die - aaaargh found accidentally by coin fairies and put on the market by coin elves" and similar rubbish). Even when the idea is shown by reasoned counterargument to be false, they stick to their guns. Tompa is convinced that Gill "engineered" the discussion in PIA and nothing is going to change his mind. What foolishness.
But there is a reason for this isn't there? Tompa has to present this as a "conspiracy" against the collector in order to "protect" the idealised picture of the PAS which serves his lobbying as a political pawn to pressurise the US Government to do what the coin collectors want. I wonder if that is the sort of protection the PAS need at the moment?
Vignette: One of the Elders of Archaeon, architects of the alleged conspiracy against collectors.
[category: antiquity dealer lobby nonsense]
It looks awfully like somebody got invited to the Washington employment law lawyers' end-of-year party and had a little too much shandy and when they got back into the office added something to their blog:
"Addendum: In some end of the year foolishness, Prof. Gill has suggested he had nothing at all to do with organizing the above submissions of academic papers. [...] I wonder if he is being far too modest and have asked him to clarify in the comments section of his blog. He has yet to post my comment or to respond. Perhaps he can do so as a New Year's resolution.Frankly in his place I'd have told Tompa to get stuffed, but David is too polite. This is the epitome of the problems with any discussion, be it with UK metal detectorists or the US coineys and dealers lobby:
1) They make some ludicrous claim,
2) Somebody engages them in discussion and points out in a reasonable manner that what they've said is ludicrous and why,
3) An independent witness corroborates that the initial claim is without foundation,
4) The person implicated points out there has been a misunderstanding,
5) the coiney persists in his error ,
6) Again the allegation is checked against the facts known to a witness,
7) The Coiney adds an addendum "In some end of the year foolishness, Prof. Gill has suggested he had nothing at all to do with organizing the above submissions of academic papers". In other words repeating the initial allegation.
One might think from the persistence that he pursues this case that Peter Tompa was the editor's secretary and saw the correspondence between David Gill and PIA's editor Brian Hole. But he is not, and since both David Gill, myself, so two people actually involved who should know what was going on as well as Brian Hole the editor who allegedly submitted to David Gill's persuasion are trying perfectly reasonably to explain to Tompa that this is not the way PIA works there must be some other reason for his utter refusal to admit that he was WRONG. Wrong in his assumption, wrong to make it, and wrong to maintain it in the face of all the evidence.
This situation is repeated time and time again with these folk, they get some idea in their head (about "where ancient coins come from, not-ancient-sites, soldiers on the eve of battle, bury -die - aaaargh found accidentally by coin fairies and put on the market by coin elves" and similar rubbish). Even when the idea is shown by reasoned counterargument to be false, they stick to their guns. Tompa is convinced that Gill "engineered" the discussion in PIA and nothing is going to change his mind. What foolishness.
But there is a reason for this isn't there? Tompa has to present this as a "conspiracy" against the collector in order to "protect" the idealised picture of the PAS which serves his lobbying as a political pawn to pressurise the US Government to do what the coin collectors want. I wonder if that is the sort of protection the PAS need at the moment?Vignette: One of the Elders of Archaeon, architects of the alleged conspiracy against collectors.
What the PAS and Candice Jarman Will not Tell You
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[category: metal detectorist lobby nonsense]
Candice Jarman reckons that...
Artefact hunting with metal detectors is an erosive form of exploitation of the archaeological record which is the common heritage of everybody, not just individuals who want to take bits of it away for private entertainment and profit. It therefore follows that everybody should be fully informed about this type of artefact hunting, who does it, how and why, and more to the point what its actual effects on the archaeological record are (both positive and negative). To what degree are we informed about that? The metal detecting forums are for the most part closed access, members-only so one has to register first with them before being able to see what goes on behind their closed doors. What have they got to hide? (Please register with one and see). There are books and promotional videos as well.
I'd like to look at one of the latter here, Steve Timewell's Complete Guide to Metal Detecting which is currently available on YouTube. I'll present the video itself on my main blog, but here I want to use it to show where Candice Jarman is trying to mislead his readers when he asserts the following.
Complete Guide to Metal Detecting (part 1) 1:31: "the landscape is constantly changing, where a primitive village once stood you might find a modern tower block or housing estate, or better still for [artefact hunter]s the land could be ploughed fields or grazing fields"
Complete Guide to Metal Detecting (part 2) [Norfolk Wolf shows how to use a machine to find collectables]
Complete Guide to Metal Detecting (part 3)
4:20: "Once you have permission to search a field, its a good idea to walk the field first and look for tell-tale signs of habitation and use. You will soon learn how to read a field and the features surrounding it" [4:36: Norfolk Wolf explains how, "we've definitely got habitation here" - "to give you some idea of the areas where you want to be doing it [looking for collectables]" 5:40 "this is the kind of thing you are looking for"]
Complete Guide to Metal Detecting (part 4)
1:24: "Researching sites", tools to help the artefact hunter find potentially productive sites. Sadly at 1:40 minutes Adam Daubney, Lincs. FLO and pop star allowed himself to be involved in this video. Great guy, but what exactly is he telling artefact hunters how to do?
Then several other detector using artefact hunters independently:
2:03 - "settlements that have vanished, tell-tale signs as shadows and shaded areas [ie cropmarks] within the crops" 2:20 "look at aerial photographs [...] marks in the ground" [cropmarks again] 3:15: "anything interesting [found in?] the area before" 3:26 aerial photos, "you can see circles where there's definitely been something there" "lost village" (3:30). Norfolk Wolf again at Castle Rising 4:20. "What you are looking for is evidence of past occupation [...] you can get the aerial photographs and you are looking for cropmarks" (6:50 too). 7:01 Targetting house platforms. "When I get on the field I'm looking for ... well I'l be hearing nails, oi'm looking fer pottery, I'm looking for oystershells, this is a sure sign of habitation. Once you've found this po'ery and the naily areas, then you can go to town, otherwise it really is pot-luck [..] it is very important that you do this field walking first, [...] it saves time in the long run". Then a boring bit on beach detecting - "some people make a living out of it".
Complete Guide to Metal Detecting (part 5) , Complete Guide to Metal Detecting (part 6), Complete Guide to Metal Detecting (part 7) - commercial artefact hunting rallies ("on prime sites" - 7:06), Complete Guide to Metal Detecting (part 8).
So far from wandering blindly around the open countryside hoping to stumble across the odd coin dropped by a careless ancient wanderer lost in the uninhabited forests, it seems that the detectorists interviewed in the video had their own methods to pinpoint sites where there had been human activity in the past, such as lost villages, habitations, archaeological cropmark sites. Candice is (and I think deliberately) misleading his readers suggesting it is otherwise. One is not going to go fishing in a river devoid of fish because heavily polluted on the off-chance that one rambo mutant fish survives somewhere in it. You go fishing on stretches of the river where there is a fair chance that there are fish. In the same way the detectorists in the video are examining maps and books showing where there are likely sites for searching with a fair prospect of finding artefacts.
I think it is worth noting what Norfolk Wolf lets slip:
[category: metal detectorist lobby nonsense]
Candice Jarman reckons that...
Mr Barford's response shows just how little this self-proclaimed 'expert' (but in reality total ignoramus) knows about metal detecting.There is of course much I would still like to learn, preferably straight from the words of metal detectorists themselves, even though I have already spent a fair amount of time trying to understand the various aspects of this hobby.
Artefact hunting with metal detectors is an erosive form of exploitation of the archaeological record which is the common heritage of everybody, not just individuals who want to take bits of it away for private entertainment and profit. It therefore follows that everybody should be fully informed about this type of artefact hunting, who does it, how and why, and more to the point what its actual effects on the archaeological record are (both positive and negative). To what degree are we informed about that? The metal detecting forums are for the most part closed access, members-only so one has to register first with them before being able to see what goes on behind their closed doors. What have they got to hide? (Please register with one and see). There are books and promotional videos as well.
I'd like to look at one of the latter here, Steve Timewell's Complete Guide to Metal Detecting which is currently available on YouTube. I'll present the video itself on my main blog, but here I want to use it to show where Candice Jarman is trying to mislead his readers when he asserts the following.
It would be nice to know 'productive sites' Mr Barford, but the truth is most metal detector finds are found on private farmland, far from known archaeological sites, and most represent isolated losses. Does a 50p piece lost in the street have a context? Of course it does n't and yet this is really what most metal detector finds are - isolated losses that happened long ago.This is what the PAS reportedly was telling US coin collectors when Roger Bland went to Washington. How true is this? Well, the PAS record is no good for working that out, the details of what was found precisely where and with what are not displayed there. What we can do to address this problem is listen to artefact hunters describing how they find places to "detect".
Complete Guide to Metal Detecting (part 1) 1:31: "the landscape is constantly changing, where a primitive village once stood you might find a modern tower block or housing estate, or better still for [artefact hunter]s the land could be ploughed fields or grazing fields"
Complete Guide to Metal Detecting (part 2) [Norfolk Wolf shows how to use a machine to find collectables]
Complete Guide to Metal Detecting (part 3)
4:20: "Once you have permission to search a field, its a good idea to walk the field first and look for tell-tale signs of habitation and use. You will soon learn how to read a field and the features surrounding it" [4:36: Norfolk Wolf explains how, "we've definitely got habitation here" - "to give you some idea of the areas where you want to be doing it [looking for collectables]" 5:40 "this is the kind of thing you are looking for"]
Complete Guide to Metal Detecting (part 4)
1:24: "Researching sites", tools to help the artefact hunter find potentially productive sites. Sadly at 1:40 minutes Adam Daubney, Lincs. FLO and pop star allowed himself to be involved in this video. Great guy, but what exactly is he telling artefact hunters how to do?
Then several other detector using artefact hunters independently:
2:03 - "settlements that have vanished, tell-tale signs as shadows and shaded areas [ie cropmarks] within the crops" 2:20 "look at aerial photographs [...] marks in the ground" [cropmarks again] 3:15: "anything interesting [found in?] the area before" 3:26 aerial photos, "you can see circles where there's definitely been something there" "lost village" (3:30). Norfolk Wolf again at Castle Rising 4:20. "What you are looking for is evidence of past occupation [...] you can get the aerial photographs and you are looking for cropmarks" (6:50 too). 7:01 Targetting house platforms. "When I get on the field I'm looking for ... well I'l be hearing nails, oi'm looking fer pottery, I'm looking for oystershells, this is a sure sign of habitation. Once you've found this po'ery and the naily areas, then you can go to town, otherwise it really is pot-luck [..] it is very important that you do this field walking first, [...] it saves time in the long run". Then a boring bit on beach detecting - "some people make a living out of it".
Complete Guide to Metal Detecting (part 5) , Complete Guide to Metal Detecting (part 6), Complete Guide to Metal Detecting (part 7) - commercial artefact hunting rallies ("on prime sites" - 7:06), Complete Guide to Metal Detecting (part 8).
So far from wandering blindly around the open countryside hoping to stumble across the odd coin dropped by a careless ancient wanderer lost in the uninhabited forests, it seems that the detectorists interviewed in the video had their own methods to pinpoint sites where there had been human activity in the past, such as lost villages, habitations, archaeological cropmark sites. Candice is (and I think deliberately) misleading his readers suggesting it is otherwise. One is not going to go fishing in a river devoid of fish because heavily polluted on the off-chance that one rambo mutant fish survives somewhere in it. You go fishing on stretches of the river where there is a fair chance that there are fish. In the same way the detectorists in the video are examining maps and books showing where there are likely sites for searching with a fair prospect of finding artefacts.
I think it is worth noting what Norfolk Wolf lets slip:
"When I get on the field I'm looking for ... well I'l be hearing nails, oi'm looking fer pottery, I'm looking for oystershells, this is a sure sign of habitation. Once you've found this po'ery and the naily areas, then you can go to town,Let us consider whether Norfolk Wolf (John Lynne) has a huge collection of ancient nails to rival that which the excavation of that site would produce? Does he have boxes and boxes of pottery and oiystershells systematically collected and catalogued from these sites, or did he just cherry pick the archaeological finds, keeping just the most collectable non-ferrous artefacts? There is a very clear difference between what can be recorded about a site from what a collector takes from it when looking for geegaws to add to a collection, and what an archaeologist gathers as part of the investigative process. This is a fundamental reason why the data recorded as a result of artefact hunting can in no way be treated as archaeological data and severely restricts their use for archaeological (and many other) purposes.
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